Below is not an "exchange."  It is a copy of a Fitzsimons posting, with my replies
only placed on these pages, not in the newsgroup.  My comments are in green lettering.

From: (John Fitzsimons)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 00:41:57 GMT
Subject: Re: A message for Ray K. from IAM...

On Sun, 14 Mar 1999 21:21:04 GMT, (Fewtch) wrote:

Hi Tim,

< snip >

Tim wrote:

>Actually, I won't be carrying on much longer.  The situation here is
>rather "hopeless" from the standpoint of an outsider.  I'm coming to
>believe that if Buddha or Sri Ramakrishna entered here and posted a
>message of love and peace for all mankind, Ray Karczewski would likely
>spit in his face.  Of what use am *I* then, one who has approached
>very closely to Brahman but has not been immersed in that ocean of
>eternal Love?  Mostly, I'll be reverting to the role of observer

Fitzsimons wrote:

I wouldn't be too bothered about posters here if I were you. Some
people only post here to spread their messages of hatred. Some even
brag about having their own hate pages on the web.

Well, yes, I have pages that expose Fitzsimons and his lies, but they don't indicate anything about hatred,  just my  desire to make it clear that he is not a person to be believed regarding the newsgroup situation, and his denigration of character.

It is a simple matter to avoid them. They usually post to as many
newsgroups as they possibly can so if you can killfile on the number
of newsgroups you can quickly cut out a lot of rubbish. Your next step
would be to look for postings where people are busy flaming others.

These people often have an abundance of testosterone, and/or ego, so can also be killfiled. We are only talking about four authors here. They account for at least 50% of the "noise".

The "four authors" referred to, above, are:

            Myself, Dan Kettler (aka Bruce Daniel Kettler)
                         Raymond Karczewski
                         Edmond Wollmann

The above are proponents of the paranormal.  What of the bigots, the liars, those who flame proponents often?  Why no mention of those people, by Fitzsimons?  More, here, on who's who in alt.paranormal.

Why are the 4 listed the one's Fitzsimons is referring to?  Those are the one's he has referred to, and criticized in the newsgroup, while excluding the bigots and liars in his references.
Another clue is to watch for people's names in thread headers. That is a clear message that the thread isn't worth your time reading it.

I recall Fitzsimons placing people's names in thread headers.

Cut out those four, the massive crossposters, and the names threads, and you will cut out over 85% of the posts in these newsgroups. That will leave you with primarily the genuine people. Those who prefer to
talk about paranormal matters in a positive way.

Don't be bothered about flamers. I have been in eg. the paranormal newsgroup for many years now and I have had almost no flaming at all from the anti-paranormal mob.

Didn't I answer Fitzsimons, in the newsgroup, and in the copies on these WEB pages, to state why,
it is most probable, that he has had "almost no flaming at all from the anti-paranormal mob"?

The main flaming I get there is from someone who supposedly is a paranormal proponent. He is easily
killfiled if one is bothered by his ranting.

I, usually, do not rant.   The "flaming"  Fitzsimons  refers to is defense, exposing him for what he is.  He has, recently, referred to me, by name, as a "major" cause of problems in the newsgroups, and is quoted as saying that I am, supposedly, the one who flames him mainly, in a reference to me in a posting directed to me, by name, quoted on these WEB pages.

Fitzsimons  received considerable criticizm from proponents of the paranormal.  He is not
well-respected by the proponents, only apparently by the bigots, the liars, those who denegrate people on USENET and the World wide Web.

Regards, John.

  ,-._|\    John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia.
 /  Oz  \
alt.paranormal.moderated - flame-free discussion of the paranormal.

The above is not an "exchange."  It is a copy of a Fitzsimons posting, with my replies
only placed on these pages, not in the newsgroup.  My comments are in green lettering.

Subject: Make Newsgroups Sane-helpful
Author: Dan Kettler <>
Date:  Mar. 11, 1999
Forum: alt.astrology alt.astrology,alt.paranormal,

Message-ID: <>

Organization: Psi Counsel, Inc.

References:      <>

How can you do that, make the newsgroups about the paranormal
                                                   UFO research
                                                   New Age Ideas

                                                   sane and

Find out, read proven, documented, facts at...


Also, don't believe the lies I have written rebuttals to, in this

This post serves as a lesson in disinformation, so you are not
taken in by the deceivers who write that there is no hope for you to
help make these newsgroups helpful, informative, and enjoyable for
exchange of paranormal, New Age, UFO and Astrology information.


WAS: Re: John Fitzsimons...chronic liar? was:
     Re: What has this Wollman done?


       I wish to explain my purpose for writing this, here:

              1. John Fitzsimons writes about the newsgroup
                 situation, often with much falsehood.

                 I wish to expose him, so people do not believe

              2. John Fitzsimons writes, often, about proponents
                 of the paranormal, and much of this
                 is distortion lies, and denegration of

                 I wish to expose him, so people do not believe

              3. The newsgroup situation, as it relates to the
                 paranormal, UFO research, astrology, and New Age
                 philosophy, may be ascertained from:


                 ...with copies of debates, and proven facts
                 from my rebuttals and other documented

              4. I've been accused of writing hatred.  I
                 emphatically state, here, that this
                 is _not_ hatred.  It is exposure,
                 and education.

On Tue, 09 Mar 1999 06:15:00 -0700, Dan Kettler
<> wrote:

>John Fitzsimons wrote:

>> On 8 Mar 1999 16:42:23 GMT, "Edmond H. Wollmann"
>> <> wrote:

Edmond Wollmann (astrologer PMAFA alt.astrology) wrote:

>> >They believe that because I am logical and tell the truth that this
>> >somehow is "mean."

John Fitzsimons wrote:

>> I would expect that your constantly posting your astrology posts to
>> the alt.paranormal newsgroup has something to do with it.

Dan Kettler had written:

>It's obvious that Wollmann receives the same lying abusive
>attacks whether he posts to alt.paranormal, or just alt.astrology.

John Fitzsimons wrote:

           Why is Wollman posting Astrology posts
           in the paranormal newsgroup...

Here is why I post astrology in a.p.

1. Astrology is paranormal in nature (explained below)

2. Apparently, hardly anyone but you object to astrology in
   alt.paranormal.  Some bigots occasionally object
   but I don't see any reason to pay attention to
   one or two people, or the bigots.

3. Attacks on Wollmann continue whether he posts
   in a.a., or a.p. and a.a.

4. A group of people exposing the bigots is most effective
   when crossposting to a.a. and a.p. (same bigots post,
   and crosspost to a.a. and a.p.)

John Fitzsimons wrote:

        (2) If people think that [Wollmann posting to a.p.]
        is inappropriate then I suspect that this could
        contribute to the opposition he gets.

Generally, people do not think it's inappropriate.  This
reminds me of your obsession in alt.out-of-body about a
year ago.  In that newsgroup, where others had asked each
other where they lived as a habit, you continually asked
them to stop.  You were advised by "regulars" of that
newsgroup that you should discontinue your repeated
criticism, but you went on day after day, making it
obvious to many that you are a control freak.

On the following URL page, I described this activity.

More on Fitzsimons:


At the top of that page I recently placed the following
questions, with links to the appropriate quotes, and
my comments:

           Does John Fitzsimons write with sense?

           Is John honest?

           Is John civil?

John Fitzsimons wrote:

       I am of the opinion however that he would be
       attacked less often if he crossposted less often.

Edmond Wollmann posted, exclusively, in alt.astrology for long
periods of time.  He was attacked consistently, then.  The
principle reason for these attacks is that he insists that
INTERNET SERVICE PROVIDERS, who write acceptable use policies,
should enforce with the provisions of those policies, equally,
and without bias to certain belief system expression.

I see no problem with writing to INTERNET SERVICE PROVIDERS,
complaining about user activities in newsgroups, when the
users violate the publicly written rules of those providers.

I find it most peculiar that you complain about Edmond Wollmann
who does not initiate abusive writing, only in defense when he's

However, most mysteriously, you do not write, here in this
newsgroup, of the constant unprovoked harassment toward
nearly anyone writing about the paranormal, particularly
the harassment of myself, Edmond Wollmann, Raymond Karczewski,
and Lucianarchy.

You do not comment about the fact that this is a form of
censorship, since it trashes the newsgroup so bad that
proponents of the paranormal do not dare post, for fear
of ridicule.

You have bragged that bigots don't write against you.
Why is that? Could it be because you constantly write
lies about the proponents who give the bigots so much flack?

John Fitzsimons wrote:

       I thought that Astrology was "normal". [vs paranormal]
       Isn't it supposed to be primarily the
       effect of "physical" planets on "physical"
       people ?

Predominant theory is that astrology works through paranormal,
metaphysical principles.  This reminds me of the late Earl
Curley's writing of what he believes your perception and
experience of the paranormal is: hardly anything.  I've
quoted this man, writing about you, drawing on his many years
experience of activity in alt.paranormal while you had also

Fitzsimons writing to Wollmann:

>> When I asked why you did this you didn't even have the courtesy
>> to reply.

I wrote:

     ...ridiculous statements and questions you
     put forth.

You wrote:

    ...ridiculous.. [why Wollmann] don't post astrology
    posts in...alt.astrology ? [only a.a., without crossposting,

I answered, what I consider my reasons, above.  Perhaps Edmond
Wollmann has the same reasons.  Generally, when it comes to
the newsgroup situation, your questions and assertions have
been harassing (repeated demands) lying, and with unproven, and
unprovoked, lying, denegration of character, calling people
"paranoid," "hypocrites," "spammers," etc.

When I attack you, it's a defense, either of myself, or someone
else.  I show how my writing of you is true.  When you attack,
you initiate them, and you are shown to be writing falsehood,
repeatedly, in all my _proven_ rebuttals to your lies.

Attacks on myself, Wollmann, Lucianarchy, or any proponent
of the paranormal spring forth from your keyboard, absolutely without
provocation, and you are most bold when the most deceptive and
degenerate bigots write with you, as you mock the proponents
of the paranormal you do not like.

All your writing is recorded at...


I had written:

>...most degenerate writers on USENET....

Fitz wrote:

I agree with comments made by some "believers" and I agree with
some comments by "disbelievers".

Fitzsimons, you are a word-twisting, spin doctor.

I wrote "degenerate writers," and you countered with
"disbelievers," as if my word "degenerate" had been written as an expression
about all "disbelievers."  I have made it clear, again and again, and
you know this, that I do not consider a "disbeliever" to be anything
derogatory because of disbelief.  You know it.  I know it, and
now everyone reading this knows what a spin doctor, and a deceiver
you are.

Fitzsimons wrote:

       This "us" and "them" approach you have
       probably explains why you get so much
       more criticism in this group than I do.

       THEM--Sherilyn, anonym, widdershins, digger, etc.

A bigot writes bigotry.
An abuser initiates abuse.
A liar writes lies.


       US--Edmond Wollmann, Raymond Karczewski, Lucianarchy, etc.

I, and they, do not write bigotry.
I, and they, do not write abuse, except in defense.
I, and they, do not write lies.


If I get criticism from bigots and abusers, so be it.  I don't
care.  I'm not posting, like you, to win a popularity contest.
I post about the paranormal, and when I see the newsgroups
trashed, I do my best to help get them cleaned up, and to help
others get themselves educated about how they can help.  Anyone
reading this, interested, can read the material referenced from:



Fitzsimons wrote:

[people who] flame others, [get little respect]

Why do you flame me, and others, so much?  Why do you write
that no-one should flame anyone, even if flamed first?

Then, why do you brag about writing 15 to 20 derogatory,
lying, attacks on me per day, and then say you'll make it
a higher number the following day? [apparently to coerce me
to remove a certain web page]





Fitzsimons wrote:

      ...or write hate mail on web pages,
      usually get little respect.

Really?  Let the reader decide if this is "hate mail,"
or a valid and effective method of exposure of Fitzsimons,
who lies often, and denegrates the character of proponents
of the paranormal in his writing to the newsgroups:

>I do not respect you FITZ...

Fitz wrote:

         I wasn't aware that I was after your "respect"...

I illustrated, in great detail, how you have lost the respect
of most proponents of the paranormal who post in alt.paranormal,
and gained the _apparent_ respect of habitually lying, libelous,
degenerates, and how "birds of a feather flock together."

That is how you, if you can call it, "won" the flame wars.  You
"gained," all right.

This illustration is at...


> Regards, John.

Regards?  Yes, I regard you too, and hope you will read
          /fitzsimons.html, and perhaps see how much
          destruction and self-destruction you promote
          in newsgroups.

  ,-._|\    John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia.
 /  Oz  \
alt.paranormal.moderated - flame-free discussion of the




             The Newsgroup Situation, as it relates
             to the paranormal, New Age Ideas, Astrology,
             and UFO research

From: Dan Kettler <>
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal,alt.paranet.ufo,talk.religion.newage,alt.astrology
Subject: Re: Flaming? No problem was: Re:
         [alt.paranormal] Posting FAQ - read
         this before posting!

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 11:01:46 -0700
Organization: Psi Counsel, Inc.

Message-ID: <>
References: <paranormal/>


NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Mar 1999 18:02:09 GMT

For a complete and proven picture
               of the newsgroup situation...


What is this posting about?

Its' so the reader will be forewarned of one of the principal
troublemakers in alt.paranormal.

He writes lies, and distorts the picture of the newsgroup
situation, especially to newbies.

There is documentation and proof, about this
person at...

It is about John Fitzsimons.

John Fitzsimons wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Mar 1999 10:19:21 GMT, wrote:
> >In article <>,
> > (John Fitzsimons) wrote:
> ><snip>
> >> ...unless flaming
> >> becomes a problem again here you could consider deleting it ?

> >Flaming, a problem?  Why, no problem, John.  As long as the bigots
> >are attacking proponents of the paranormal, you don't notice.

> I am a proponent of the paranormal. I don't have any bigots attacking
> me here.   :-)

                          Three things, in your denial,
                          your avoidance, you missed:

                          1. Why have you not criticized the
                             bigots for _initiating_ attack
                             of the proponents of the
                             paranormal, while instead
                             attacking the proponents for
                             their _defense_?

                             If both are flaming, why pick on
                             one side?

                         2.  Why, in your statement at that
                             beginning of this post do you
                             write as if there was _no_ flaming
                             in the newsgroup, as if since I had
                             been gone, there, allegedly, had
                             been no flames?

                         3. Why have you ignored my replies
                            to your above statement, again
                            repeated below?

Now, _you know_ I answered that in a recent post, and in fact
answered it months ago.  Clearly, it is the bigots who you
support when you write against proponents of the paranormal.

Proponents expose the lies and propaganda of the bigots.  You write
lies about proponents such as Lucianarchy, Edmond Wollmann, myself,
and others.

When you support bigots against those who are
a threat to them, of course they will be nice to you.

Yes, the BIGOTS, and for a clear description of who they are:


They are not skeptics, not people who merely disagree with
the existence of the paranormal, but people who write everything
they can to discourage proponents from posting to alt.paranormal.

> Perhaps if you didn't attack people....

I defend.  You, and the bigots you support attack.  If my
truth about you seems unwholesome, while your lies about me
seem okay, then perhaps you need to start seeing more clearly.

     ...then you would have less of a
     problem ?

This is not a "problem" to me.  I was off USENET for months,
and didn't post until I noticed your spin doctoring about
Edmond Wollmann.  It was then I decided to dig up some
past posts of yours with distortions and lies about me,
and bring the truth of these matters to light.

I may disappear, again, having brought some light to the
group, and leave it to others to continue, as they had been,
enlightening newbies as to who's who, and what they do.

People who have integrity do not like to see lies
spread about people, in the newsgroups.  They will
continue to expose the liars.

Witness Lucianarchy's "Sherilyn is evil FAQ" as
one example, and Edmond Wollmann's pages that expose
the bigots and spin doctors, and soon, I expect your
spin-doctoring methods will probably be exposed
on Edmond's page as well.

> Maybe your "hate pages" don't win you friends ?

I don't have "hate pages," I have pages that expose liars,
that prove the lies as such (since DEJANEWS records every
word)...and since you mention that, here are the pages
that expose you...

> Perhaps you could try doing what I do ? Come to the paranormal
> newsgroup to discuss the paranormal.

I do.  When I do, and when other proponents of the paranormal
who do not have degenerates and bigot on their side as
you do, write of the paranormal, they are attacked.  Their
sanity is brought into question for daring to advocate that
such a thing as the paranormal, for such a thing as alien
life forms, or for such a thing as astrology is valid.

There are, and have been, posts about the paranormal, from me,
in this newsgroup.  I, unlike the one's who run from
alt.paranormal, answer the bigots by exposing their activities,
something you don't like me to do.  For that, you attack me, and
lie about me.  No-wonder the bigots side with you, and do not
attack you.

I don't care what you like, or don't like, FITZ.  Many of the
other proponents in alt.paranormal, don't care either.  They,
and I, will continue to expose what BIGOTS do, and help others to
know that they, too, can help clean up the newsgroups.

They can find out how, at...


> >As long as proponents are being discouraged from posting in
> >alt.paranormal because of the ridicule, lies and attacks,
> >you don't notice anything.

> I am not discouraged from posting here. The only attacks I get are
> from you.

You receive rebuttals from others, and people expose you.  They
see you are a spin doctor, and that though you advocate that I
should write about the paranormal, much of your activity
is to write lies about people all the time.

You attack me.  You lie about me, and you have bragged about
the 15 to 20 attacking and lying posts about me per day would
be increased the following day, in an effort to coerce me to
remove web pages.

If what I do is attack, it is only for the purpose of defense, of
myself, Edmond Wollmann, and others.  I do this because you lie
about us.  I do it with proven truth.  You attack me with lies.

If you would stop lying about people, and their activities,
in newsgroups, you would probably receive no personal
comments about yourself.

If you would do what you pretend to advocate, writing about the
paranormal, and leave personal issues out, you would have
no-one attacking you.  You don't do, obviously, what you

In order to defend, adequately, it is necessary to to attack
you.  It is necessary to show what a liar you are, as I have
done.  You have brought this upon yourself, and I expect you
will be receiving the brunt of attacks, in the future,
from others in these newsgroups, especially if you continue
your spin doctoring and lies about people.

> I agree that your attacks however may discourage others.

Again, you show your true colors.  Your writing, above, is
deception.  I did not write what you allgedly "agree" with
above.  First, my writing about discoragement is that the
proponents of the paranormal are discouraged from posting
in these newsgroups about UFOs, about astrology, and
about other aspects of the paranormal and New Age
thought.  I wrote that ___THE ATTACKS OF BIGOTS___
upon these people discourages ___THE PROPONENTS__.

I did not write anything like what you convey, above.

But, then, again, you are a spin-doctoring liar, and have
been at least the past 3 years I've been reading your posts:


...and as quoted at the above URL from Earl Curley, who's
been a  proponent of the paranormal posting to alt.paranormal
for a long, long time.

> >When Edmond Wollmann posts astrology in alt.paranormal, you notice
> >that--as if it created a _real_ problem.

> It does. It means that his flame wars go into this newsgroup as well
> as alt.astrology.

Then, why don't you tell the bigots who are crossposting that
_they_ should stop?  They initiated the flame war.  Edmond
only defends.

In any event, the same bigots post to both newsgroups, no matter
whether Edmond does or not.

I answered this why crosspost to aa. and a.p., in more detail, in
a recent post.

Are you here, in alt.paranormal, to fight against any proponent
of the paranormal who dares to defend themselves, to expose the lies,
the deception about advocates of the paranormal from the bigots, the

Is that your primary purpose?  It seems that way.  You spend an
inordinate amount of time doing this, to the utter disgust of
the rational paranormalists.

Most of the people who have posted in alt.paranormal, as
proponents, for any significant period of time, for years,
those I've listed here...


...find your attacks upon proponents of the paranormal in this
paranormal newsgroup to be utterly reprehensible, whether they told
me so in e-mail, or posted it to the newsgroup.

Your flame wars against us has brought you this reputation of
being a liar, and of one who brings trouble to the newsgroup.
I'm here to expose you to the newbies, so you don't bring
_so much_ trouble, since they are warned beforehand.

I am here to defend my reputation, again, as you  wrote lies
about me even months after I ceased posting.  One posting even
had "BDK" in the header.

> If he only posted in alt.astrology then we would be
> saved from seeing these pointless Wollmann threads.

I expect he will continue posting in alt.paranormal and
alt.astrology.  I expect people will lie about him, and
denegrate him, with remarks in the headers in both

I expect, in the true spirt if your biased writing, you will
continue to blame Edmond Wollmann, instead of the bigots.


> If  I wanted to learn about astrology I would look for an
> astrology newsgroup. Not a paranormal one. I suspect that
> other people who have an interest in astrology would do
> much the same.

The reason such a thing as cross-posting exists, is that if
someone were to write about telepathic contact with aliens,
they would cross-post to alt.paranet.ufo and alt.paranormal.
If someone were writing about when the New Age starts,
astrologically, they would post to alt.astrology and
talk.religion.newage.  That is why such a thing as
cross-posting exists.

There are other reasons, however, for crossposting.  I mentioned
all of them, recently, in another post, and some of them in
this post.

The same people who are attacking Edmond Wollmann in alt.astrology,
have been, for some time, answering posts with ridicule and
attack, to nearly anyone who dares advocate that such a thing as the
paranormal exists, in alt.paranormal.

We are a united front, and we crosspost as a group of people with
greater effect in our defense, when we post our defense simultaneously
to both newsgroups.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to present that option to
the proponents of both newsgroups, again, in this post.

> >When bigots attack
> >Lucianarchy, you write as if they were telling the truth.

> If I think people are speaking the truth I will say so.

You don't give greater importance to what is truth, compared to
what are lies. You are a liar, however, and that explains why that
would be your attitude.

> If  I think someone is
> not telling the truth then I will often say so. It doesn't matter if
> they are "skeptics" or "believers".

In disputes between bigots and proponents of the paranormal, you
side with bigots. You do this nearly _all_ the time.  "Skeptics"
don't enter the picture, so your writring is irrelevant to my point.

> As you are not telling me the message ID and the exact words
> I said I cannot comment further [on that particular issue].

However, on issues in general, the matter of proponents vs
bigots, the archives show that most of the time, when anyone
defends themselves against bigots, by exposing them,
you attack the proponent, and side with the bigots.



> >Then, you write that I'm the principal cause of these problems,
> >when I'd not posted in months.

> Please give me the message ID/date  where I said you were the
> "principle cause". I doubt that You can find a post where I have used
> those words recently.

                      Keywords can be found by using dejanews.
                      Perhaps it was not the word "principal"


> >Months after I stop, the incessant
> >nasty, lying, attacks continue upon proponents of the paranormal.

> You are not necessarily the principle cause of flaming in this
> newsgroup however this flame post of yours shows that you are happy
> to flame both believers, and non believers.

The following was not included in the original post.  It is a quote
of John Fitzsimons:

     What personal abuse from people opposing
     proponents ?...The major abuse has come
     from a supposed proponent of the paranormal.
     Bruce [Dan Kettler] has even gone to the trouble
     to devote (web) hate pages to me.

The web pages referred to, above, are at...

Subject: Re: #### Good-bye ####
Date: Dec. 22, 1998


You flame me with lies. I defend by showing what a liar you
are.   That's just tooooo bad, poor little FITZ, doesn't like
to be exposed. (HA HA!)


At the top of the page, at the above URL, just click at "sense"
"honest" and "civil" and see the referred pages that quote just
_ONE EXAMPLE_ of the lack of all three in Fitzsimons' writing.


                      You write nonsense.
                      You write lies.
                      You write uncivilly, ie: you _FLAME_

> It should also be noted that even though flames in this newsgroup
> haven't stopped altogether they have gone down considerably during
> the period you took a break.

Yeah, sure!  BIGOTS flamed proponents before I came on the NET.
BIGOTS flame proponents after I stop, and BIGOTS flame proponents
on and on, and you side with them continually against the proponents.

> >During all these attacks, you see fit to write falsehood about
> >Edmond Wollmann,

> Falsehood ? I said Wollman crossposts. Doesn't he ?

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